Stephen Baker - English version

Here you can find the interview with Stephen Baker, inventor and creator of our favourite dungeon crawler.

I hope you enjoy a lot reading this interview, and maybe you will find answers to questions that have been around the fan community for more than thirty years.

I would like to say again thanks to Stephen for his time and dedication to answer these questions, he is the coolest person ever.

Special thanks also to Cristóbal from la Guarida de Morcar YouTube channel, and to HispaZargon from Ye Olde Inn forum for his contribution.

Complete interview with Stephen Baker

HeroQuest after 30 years

HeroQuest (HQ) was the entry-level fantasy game for many young people, and it revolutionized the board games industry forever. In 1990, HQ had a huge success in sales terms when it was released in Spain. It was the best-selling board game for three years consecutively. For many of us, this game is still an important part of our lives nowadays.

Q: What was your inspiration for the game?

A: HeroQuest has a special place in my heart. It is the game I am best known for. It is also a game that best captures what I value. As a boy, I grew up playing a lot of tabletop miniature games. I collected toy soldiers and was inspired by wargame authors such as Charles Grant and Donald Featherstone. Peter Gilder’s great wargame terrain also inspired me. These rule sets, miniatures, and terrain established an aspiration in play that I hold with me to this day. I like simplicity, I like miniatures, and I like spectacle.

I was also a keen roleplayer, both as a player and as a DM. I ran a game for several years using a blended set of rules based on AD&D and Rolemaster. The rules were very streamlined and simplified. What appealed to me most in roleplaying was the organic nature of the storytelling. As a DM, I had a loose narrative, but it readily changed based on the actions of my player’s characters.

When I designed HeroQuest I wanted all of the above elements present. I wanted to keep the game simple. A game that anyone could play. I wanted miniatures and a dungeon environment that brought the world to life. I also wanted the players to feel like they were in a fantasy adventure with great villains, traps and surprises. I described it as roleplaying in a box. It is easy to look back at the game now and discuss how it could have been different. However, you have to look at it in the context of when it was launched. Modern Euro gaming as we know it had yet to take off. There was nothing in the market that compared to what HeroQuest offered.

When HeroQuest was relaunched, it was great to see you writing a new quest and talking about the game.

Q: What did it mean for you to come back after 30 years, and being involved in the best board game of our childhood… (and our adulthood)?

A: When Hasbro reached out to me and asked if I would like to participate in the relaunch in a small way I was thrilled! As time went by, I got a sneak peek at their development. I was amazed at how they modernized the game yet kept the classic feel. The new box art, miniatures, and gameboard are all unmistakably HeroQuest yet have a fresh style.

Hasbro asked me to participate on the HasLab panel. They also asked me to write a new adventure. I thought about what to do and decided to have the players revisit one of the narratives from the original game, “Melar’s Maze”. I really wanted to give the fans an adventure that touched upon something from the past.

It was a little surreal to be writing a new adventure for a game I had designed 30 years ago. It brought back a lot of great memories of that time in my life. The journey I went through when designing the game and all the people involved, not least of which was Roger Ford, the VP of Design. He was a great mentor to me and gave me great support throughout.

The process of developing the narrative and arc of the adventure was essentially the same. However, I wanted to bring greater detail into the unfolding story. The development was totally different. When I was first writing HeroQuest adventures I had to type everything on a very early Mac and print them out on a dot-matrix printer. I would photocopy elements, reposition them, and then cut and paste the maps together. These days, I have a suite of software tools to manage all of this.

And after 30 years, the renaissance of HeroQuest

Q: Where do you think HQ is heading now? Do you think it is appropriate to introduce new and more complex game mechanics like modular boards, or other rules related to RPG games such as experience points to develop the skills of the heroes? Do you think that the game would lose some of the original essence due to the higher level of complexity?

A: HeroQuest is managed by Hasbro and it is not really for me to say what they should or should not do. There has been a huge amount of fan material adding in new rules, clarifying some open rule questions and proposing new heroes. Some of this has been embraced. As you see in some of the newer Quest Packs there are additional rules around passing items between heroes and unthreatened movement. My general view is that HeroQuest is, and always will be, a light introductory game of fantasy adventure. It can evolve for sure, but one of its great charms and appeal is its simplicity. There have been many games since that provide for more depth or detail.

The fan community in general, and the die-hard fans like me in particular, were delighted when we saw that the Prophecy of Telor quest pack was created by you. This quest pack has a good background story and introduces interesting game mechanics, but without losing the essence of the original game.

Q: Are you still working with Hasbro creating and designing material for HQ? If yes, could you please tell us something about future projects? Maybe a Prophecy of Telor sequel?

A: I cannot talk about work that has yet to be announced or released. I can tell you that I continue to be in contact with the team developing HeroQuest. They have been kind enough to ask me to work on additional material. So, “Wait an ye shall see.” As Mentor might say.

History

I have quite a few questions related to the original HQ history. The discussions around the origins of HQ have created a lot of different theories within the fan community during the last thirty years.

There are some articles and interviews published during the 80s and 90s, (like the one in the White Dwarf magazine), where members of the Games Workshop (GW) staff were working with you directly in the development of the HQ game made by Milton Bradley (MB). However, the fan community never knew to what degree GW influenced the game rules and mechanics, or if GW was just limited to provide the design of the miniatures, the artwork and create the quests.

Q: Can you please tell us a bit more about the GW participation in the design and development of HQ, and who were the main persons involved in?

A: I had been developing a fantasy adventure game prior to the deal with Games Workshop. Early versions of HeroQuest were very different. It had a series of dungeon tiles that could be placed out to create different layouts. Early playtesting with children at some local school revealed a number of issues.

· It took too much time to find the right tile as the game progressed.

· The Morcar/Zargon player would sometimes place the wrong tile or set up the initial tile so that the game ran off one side of the table.

· The different layouts made each Quest a new graphic design challenge to position on the map page available.

· It was hard to explain that this was a board game even though the tiles made the board you played on.

The designers at GW also had a game idea that was played within high-density expanded foam hexes with walls. These had doorways on one or more sides and a card insert in the bottom for the play area. It was a similar material that GW had used in BloodBowl and the Mighty Fortress. However, this would have cost too much and reduced the available play area.

I re-worked the whole game onto a more traditional board. Originally, I had planned for a three-panel board, similar to those in Axis & Allies. However, this proved too expensive, and I had to reduce it to a traditional two panel board. This really cleaned up how to manage the map design. Everything was contained within the game board, and it was easy to have a set template. It also made it much easier to explain. You opened the board and placed the starting stairs and a door, and it was easy to understand that as you go through a door, more gets set up, and the game progresses. The importance of this should not be underestimated. We needed to sell this game into the market, and it was important for sales folks to be able to explain.

Once I had the new design, I met with the designers at GW. We played the game, and they liked it. My main contacts at GW were Bob Naismith for miniatures, Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson for gameplay, John Blanche for art, and Phil Gallagher for rules and editing.

Among them, I believe that the name of Jervis Johnson appears quite often…

Q: Do you think that this fact helped GW to develop in parallel the Advanced Heroquest game?

A: It was always part of the plan that GW would make an Advanced HeroQuest. Milton Bradley (MB)/Hasbro was a mass-market company. They needed to sell games to traditional mass-market retailers. The win-win for Hasbro and GW was that GW brought their superb Citadel miniatures into a Hasbro game, and Hasbro created a game that was a gateway for interested payers into the world of GW.

I had no part in Advanced HeroQuest. This was developed entirely by the GW team.

Without any doubt, you were the father and the main designer of HQ.

Q: However, were you involved in the design and development of the expansion packs that MB released in Europe afterwards? Or only in some of them such as Kellar’s Keep and Return of the Witch Lord?

A: I worked on all of these in some way. At the time the line was growing, and we had new titles under development such as, Space Crusade and Battle Masters. Some of the work on new expansions was, therefore, managed by others on my design team.

Q: How about the Dark Company quest? Were you involved?

A: I wrote this after leaving Hasbro in 1992. Hasbro wanted a bonus mega-quest to put into a new versions of the HeroQuest game. This was confusingly called the Advanced Quest Edition, even though it had nothing to do with Advanced HeroQuest.

On the other hand, the American version released in 1990, had some different rules compared to the European version, such as monsters with more than one body point, chaos spell cards, additional searching actions, and even the first quest of the game was changed.

Q: Did you participate in these modifications, or the changes were introduced by the MB team in US led by Mike Gray?

A: Mike and I had been in contact from the beginning. When the US design team heard we were developing a fantasy game they suggested Mike come over to look at the game. Mike had previously worked at TSR and obviously had a lot of knowledge with this genre. Mike and I hit it off from the beginning. He stayed in the UK for a week or so, and I visited the US shortly thereafter.

The US launch followed those in Europe. The US team made some adjustments and were able to draw from work we had underway in Europe. They used some of the same miniatures and content for expansions like the Elf Pack, which used ogres, and the Barbarian Pack, which used men-at-Arms. Mike directed this work. I am unsure if these were reviewed with the GW team.

At the same time, the Japanese version released in 1991, had even more changes in the rules compared to the European version, including the background story around the quests.

Q: Did you take part in the design of these modifications or was this task given to other members of the MB team; or maybe to the company Takara which commercialized the game in Japan?

A: No, I had no involvement with the Takara team. I am unsure if the US team worked with them. My assumption is the Takara team did the adaptation themselves.

Some of these new rules of the Japanese edition were very interesting. In fact, it looks like they are clearly improvements from the original set of rules, that is why the fan community believe that you were involved somehow.

As previously mentioned, unlike the European and American versions of the game, in the Japanese edition, the background story of the quests is quite different; for example, the player in the Morcar role is also the final boss / villain (called Grimdead) that has to be defeated by the heroes.

Q: During the development and design of the original game, did you consider at some point that Morcar should be the final boss/villain to be defeated by the heroes instead of the Witch Lord?

A: No, for me Morcar/Zargon is always the power behind those you are confronting. You never quite get to be face-to-face with the ultimate bad guy.

Speaking about the Witch Lord,

Q: Was this character an original idea of GW or it was MB’s team responsibility?

A: This was my idea. I wanted an enemy that felt like you were dealing with someone who was a close second to Morcar/Zargon. My thinking behind the first two expansions was that in one you are facing a new dark foe and in the other there is a rescue mission and a besieged king.

In the history of HeroQuest, there is a key milestone where MB and GW stop their collaboration developing games together, therefore, no new HQ expansions were released. The fan community have been wondering for decades what really happened. (There are lots of different theories here)

Q: Could you please shed some light on this matter?

A: This happened after I left Hasbro in 1992. I am unsure what the reasons would have been. I personal suspicion is it was mainly to do with sales. Hasbro enjoyed several years of success with the line of fantasy games. These included HeroQuest, Space Crusade and Battle Masters. Space Crusade was never launched in the US. The challenge with all of these games was the expansion model. Expansions are not standalone games. This requires that retailers keep the base game in stock for expansions to sell. This is not a good model for mass-market. The games and all the expansions took up a lot of retail space. Battle Masters was a huge box. Over time, retailers could not continue to stock everything, and the demand dropped to the point where it no longer made sense for Hasbro to continue with the line. It is no different than most other games.

And coming back to Mr. Gray; some time ago, there was evidence of some internal notes between Mike Gray and the designers related to the Dwarf Quest and the Wizard Quest expansion packs in the US. Unfortunately, these two quest packs were never released.

Q: Are you aware of the existence of these notes? Do you know what happened? Do you know if “Against the Ogre Horde” and “Wizards of Morcar” were originally intended to be the Dwarf Quest and the Wizard Quest packs?

A: I have not seen any notes. I do know that two other quests were developed and ready. The two expansions you mentions, “ Against the Ogre Horde” and the “Wizards of Morcar” were developed in Europe. In the European line we never planned for solo quests. As mentioned above, elements of these expansions were used in the US developed items.

Avalon Hill (AH) recently announced “Against the Ogre Horde”, and clearly, they must adapt this quest to the new HQ edition, which is the remake of the American version.

Q: Are you aware of these changes?

A: I was not involved in the development of this re-launch. I have only seen what has been made public.

According to the latest leaks, everything indicates that the next expansion “Against the Ogre Horde” will be the Dwarf Quest. There are also rumors about the future release of “Wizards of Zargon”, as the Wizard Quest, and as the last expansion to complete the circle of the new edition of HQ.

Q: Are you aware of this information or are you involved somehow in these expansions? If yes, could you please tell us something about it so all the fans can get even more excited?

A: As mentioned above I was not involved, and I can only speak to work I have done that has been released.

And now to close around the history of the game,

Q: What is the history behind the names of Morcar and Zargon? Why the name of the main villain Morcar was changed in the American edition of 1990 to Zargon?

A: I do not know for sure. For whatever reason, the US team changed the name from Morcar. The name Morcar came from my own fantasy world that I developed for my RPG group. Morcar was the primary dark agent in my world, similar to a Sauron-type character. Part of the reason may have been they wanted a shorthand for referencing the DM in the game. In the European rules, it referred to, ‘the evil wizard player”, which is a long way to say DM. In the US rules they refer to Zargon.

Rules and the HeroQuest community

First, a couple of technical questions related to the game rules, which have originated long discussions in famous HQ forums like Ye Olde Inn.

Q: Is it mandatory for a Hero to be next to a treasure chest to open it, or is it enough to search for it within the room where the treasure chest is located?

A: When you search for treasure you search the whole room. This will trigger a Morcar/Zargon note related to what may be in a chest or a trap associated with it. I know some players differentiate between Search the Room versus Search a Chest, which requires that you are adjacent.

In theory, it is not the same “to see” than “to be in line of sight.

Q: Is this assumption correct?

A: I think when the term “to see” is used it is implying there is a line of sight. This is a good point to talk a little about customization. One of the reasons I used to like simpler games is that they are easier to customize and make your own. I used to do this all the time when I was a young player. I would take the wargame rules of Grant or Featherstone and adapt them. I think most gamers have had a house rule or two for the games they enjoy the most. Right from the outset I hoped that players would do this with HeroQuest. It is why the Quest Book came with a blank page to photocopy and design your adventures. In Europe, there was also a Dungeon Design Kit you could buy that came with stickers to enable players to design new adventures for their friends and family.

Speaking about Ye Olde Inn website… thanks to digital forums like this, where fans from every corner of the world have been exchanging information during decades, the flame of HQ has been kept alive. We sometimes dreamed about the fact that maybe the inventor and creator of our favorite dungeon crawler visited the HQ forums, and even participated in anonymously.

Q: Have you ever visited or participated in any HQ forum?

A: Yes, I have visited it many times as well as other social media groups. I occasionally drop in a comment if I see a good post or well-painted miniatures. It is amazing to see the passion that exists around the game. I have received countless emails or notes from players over the years telling me how much they enjoyed the game when they were growing up. Many have told me how HeroQuest was the game that got them into fantasy gaming, hobby gaming, or even game design and writing. Others have told me more recently how they have enjoyed introducing their family to a game they played when younger. When I think about the millions of copies sold and all the games played it makes me humble to think in some small way I have had the opportunity to make so many people smile.

This might be a controversial question. When you created HQ, the heroes were defined as Barbarian, Dwarf, Elf and Wizard; in the new edition of HQ, we can see different type of heroes, such as Warlock, Druid, Orc Bard, Knights and Rogues with their very own set of skills. And in addition, early next year the Path of the Wandering Monk expansion will be released, with even more skills for the heroes and the introduction of a different game system called The Arena.

Q: What do you think about these new game mechanics that come with these characters? Have you ever thought about having additional types of heroes in the original HQ?

A: I think HeroQuest has to reflect the expectations of today’s gamer. When HeroQuest was launched originally, there were few games to compare it to. If you look at contemporary video games like Gauntlet, you have similar classic characters. It is no different from how D&D classes have evolved and grown.

As mentioned in the previous question, there is an Orc Bard as hero character.

Q: What do you think about this?

A: I have nothing against Orc Bards, providing they can sing. This is true of all Bards. In the RPG campaign I ran mentioned earlier, there was a Bard character. The player would often craft a short rhyme to close each session. In game he was relentless in hi spursuit of recognition. When greeting any new NPC he would declare, “I am Muewaall-e-Men Thred, perhaps you have heard of me?”Needless to say, few had.

As you can see, the miniature that you received is an antihero disciple of Morcar, and it is for me an honor that the creator of HQ owns one. This miniature has been created by the fan community in Spain, and there are also other examples of material related to HQ such as quest books, characters, etc. that have been created by the fans for the last 30 years.

Q: Did you expect that the fan community would grow so much around HQ?

A: I had no idea the fan base would grow the way it has. Though I had always hoped that players would enjoy the game and make it their own. As mentioned earlier, this is why I embraced the idea of fan-made material right from the start.

And now this question might be a bit silly (and probably I know the answer already); however I need to ask if you are aware that due to a translation issue, the Elf in the Spanish version of the original HQ game was named the Troll instead.

Q: Did you know this fun fact?

A: Ha-Ha, I had not heard that. It is similar to how “torch” in German was originally translated as flashlight.

Before we jump to other games that you have also created, one last question related to HQ. During decades, the fan community have been speculating with the fact that the great actor Sir Christopher Lee used his voice for the TV commercial of the original HQ.

Q: Do you know if this is true? (It certainly sounds like his voice!)

A: I cannot say for sure. However, my memory of going to the original HeroQuest advertising shoot is that they did talk of using Sir Christopher Lee.

Other Games

Let’s talk about another great game that you designed: Space Crusade.

Q: Do you believe that it could return to the stores like HQ after so many years?

A: I doubt it. Space Crusade was similar to HeroQuest in that it used Citadel miniatures and was more explicitly based in the GW world of Warhammer 40K. It had Space Marines, Space Orks and Chaos Marines. The game was also named differently in various markets, unlike HeroQuest. I like Space Crusade as a game. It was more of an asymmetrical game as opposed to an RPG-like board game with a DM.

And you also designed a game with a lot of players in Spain: Battle Masters. There were some rumors that the original intention was to include Dark Elves units within the Chaos Army in the game, even with bolt thrower weapons.

Q: Do you know if this is true?

A: There were never any plans for Dark Elves to be in the original game. I left Hasbro in 1992 and there were further expansions for Battle Masters under development at the time. Though these never came out. At the time I left Hasbro I had also designed the WH40K version of Battle Masters. This was to have included card and plastic Rhinos as well as modular terrain tiles and plastic terrain. I do not know if this game was ever reviewed by the GW team. I recently did an in-depth interview with Jordan Sorcery on Battle Masters. He also has videos on HeroQuest and Space Crusade.

After Space Crusade and Battle Masters, there is some evidence that GW proposed the idea to MB of launching two more board games; one of them related to chariot racing wars. But it seems that both companies did not reach an agreement on this.

Q: Do you know if this information is accurate? If yes, could you please tell us what was the main theme of the fifth game under this project with GW?

A: I do not know how or why the agreement came to an end. I do know there was a GW game being proposed. This was themed around fantasy chariot racing. There were early miniatures in development and the game involved racing around a surface using movement templates. Hasbro hired me to playtest the game for a day and provide thoughts. The game was never released, and I have no knowledge on what further development may have taken place.

Personal view

Currently, board games have become an important part of our culture.

Q: How do you see the board game industry in general?

A: Games have become an intrinsic part of our daily lives. More people are playing more games on more occasions and platforms than ever. Playing strategy games used to be a fringe hobby. It is now mainstream. I do not think this will change. We have long since passed the tipping point where the value of games as one of our standard entertainment options became normality. Digital versions of games expand the breadth of play occasions. Games that might require 3-4 players to organize a game night, ten minutes to set up, forty minutes to play, etc., can be condensed to a 10-minute experience online. This does not detract from the appeal and unique experience of playing in person but allows for a game to be played more often.

I think we will continue to see more innovation in product design. New technologies and game mechanics will create new experiences. However, I think it is important for technology to have a real purpose within a game. There is no value in technology unless it provides something new and different.

With your permission, we can discuss more about your personal preferences.

Q: Do you play any board games currently?

A: I do not have the time I used to for playing games. I have been building my small business for the past four years, and much of my gameplaying time has been invested into playtesting new games. I still try to arrange a few tabletop battles, mostly Napoleonic. I also enjoy games like Memoir ’44, Napoleon, Ticket to Ride, and Carcasonne. I also play a lot of Hearthstone.

Q: Which ones would you recommend based on your experience as designer and creator?

A: It really depends. Games are like books and movies. There are different styles and genres. What I would recommend depends on what you like. That being said, there are two games above I would recommend players try if they like military or historical-based games.

The first is “Napoleon”. It does a great job of capturing the flavor of the Waterloo Campaign. The block movement along different types of roads. The fog of war in not being able to have complete information about the enemy captures the experience of being a Napoleonic General. You feel like you are navigating troop maneuvers when studying the map to find a way to get one more unit into battle.

The second is “Memoir ‘ 44”. Again, this is a simplified system that allows for a lot of flexibility. Games are best played back-to-back to get an even score. Each unit type has just enough variation in how they play to provide the tactical differences needed.

Q: What type of games do you prefer: Card, RPG, Wargames, Euros, Ameritrash, or other?

A: I think, for the most part, I like wargames and RPGs, though I have not had a regular roleplay group since 2019.

In the HQ fan community, many of us are not just board game players but also collectors.

Q: Do you keep any copy of the games that you have created?

A: I usually get a few copies of all my games. However, over the years, these have dwindled. Lost, destroyed (had a couple of basement floods), or given away. I have a couple of pristine HeroQuest, Battle Masters and Space Crusade games. I do not have a full set of expansions for any of them.

When we look at the back of the original HQ box, or the TV commercial, we can see something that looks like a prototype of the game because the miniatures have round bases, the furniture is different and the symbols on the dies look also different. It would be amazing for the fan community to see any prototype material from the very beginning, when HQ was just a concept.

Q: Do you keep any prototype of the original HQ? If yes, would you mind sharing any image of those prototypes some day?

A: The prototypes used in the commercials for HeroQuest, Space Crusade and Battle Masters were all pre-production copies. These often-had earlier artwork, text, and metal miniatures instead of plastic. They were very close to final but prototypes, nonetheless. I was often the person who had to cut out and assemble these. I would attend the box photography shoots and the TV commercial shoots. I would be responsible for the prototype and to make sure things were set up accurately. I do not have any of those original prototypes.

Q: What other games were you interested in creating? Something that you always wanted to make, but for some reason you never did.

A: As I am now an independent game designer, I have the opportunity to pursue some of those ideas. I have some regular contract work and work on several freelance projects yearly to keep a base revenue coming in. However, the rest of my time I spend on inventing. I have several projects underway, one of which will be launched in Q4 of 2024. When I have more information about this project, I would love to share more with you.

Before we conclude this interview,

Q: Is there anything you would like to say to the HQ fans out there, especially to the Spanish players, that without any doubt, are the most fanatics about your creation?

A: A huge THANK YOU! It is always a pleasure to hear from you. Whenever fans contact me, I always make an effort to respond. It is always so rewarding to hear your stories and memories of playing HeroQuest. I have been touched by the way playing HeroQuest has impacted many of you. For some, it is just a treasured memory with friends or family. For others, it was an inspiration for things to come.

This interview is a dream come true, not only for me, but also for all the fan community behind that will keep the HQ game alive for another 30 years. I hope you had fun answering the questions, and maybe bringing back some good memories of your amazing career. Thanks again for your time, and for creating the best dungeon crawler game ever made.

Thank you, it was my pleasure. I appreciate you sending me the “The Guardian of the Lair” miniature. It is a very cool fan creation.